Dreifaltige Rollenspiel-Lektüre

Drei Falten mit einem Rollenspielerkopf dahinter, ergibt einen nachdenklichen, amüsanten und relativ bodenständigen Blick auf das was war, ist und möglicherweise in der Szene los sein wird.

Dienstag, Juli 01, 2008

If someone asks me again, why oldschoolers are often not...

...qualified to judge modern games, I show them this, this and this.

Shame on you, Mr Rients.

14 Kommentare:

Anonymous kirilow meinte...

Lieber Alexandro,

verstehe nicht, was Du meinst. Jeff berichtet doch eigentlich sehr nett und interessant über seine Spielerlebnisse mit Exaltet. Ihm gefällt es offenbar nicht so gut. Warum sollte er deshalb zur Beurteilung nicht fähig sein -- nur weil er es nicht toll findet?

Grüße
kirilow

Juli 02, 2008 12:46 nachm.  
Anonymous Skyrock meinte...

Where's Jeff going wrong? There are certainly slowing quirks in the Exalted mechanics, there's stuff that throws sand into the cogwheels (like the claim to be anime/cinematic/heroic/whatever-it's-called-these-days and the existence of 'enabling feats' that forbid anything but the bog standard hack'n'slash unless you pay for it), and when there's simply no fun in playing it, and everything's done right, the system must suck.

Not that I ever owned or played Exalted... Everything I heard about the charm system is off-putting enough, and I rather play a game of which I can have serious hope that it's good, then a game that's mediocre and below, just because it's a message board's darling.

Juli 02, 2008 2:07 nachm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

Lieber kirilow,
nehmen wir mal für einen Moment an, dass Jeff kein oldschooler, sondern ein "mature" WW-Storyteller wäre.

Durch Zufall bemerkt er, dass es ein Spiel namens D&D gibt und dass dieses sehr erfolgreich ist. Nach dem was er durch seine Storyteller-Kumpels gehört hat, geht es in dem Spiel nur um tumbes Monsterkloppen, wie es 13jährigen Spaß macht.

Trotzdem entscheidet er sich dem Spiel "eine Chance zu geben" und probiert es mit seiner Gruppe aus. Natürlich spielen sie es als tumbes Monsterkloppen für 13jährige, weil sie es nicht anders kennen. Jeff bemertkt, dass ihm das Spiel in dieser Weise sogar Spaß macht- für eine Weile. Dann hat er jedoch genug davon und kehrt zum "erwachsenen" Storytelling zurück.
Er schreibt in seinem Blog einen Spielbericht, welcher im wesentlichem das Fazit enthält: "D&D zu spielen ist ein spaßiger Snack für Zwischendurch, aber es bietet nicht genug Langzeitmotivation, um eine Kampagne damit zu spielen."

Glaubst du, solch eine Einschätzung würde in irgendeiner Weise positiver durch die oldschool-Community aufgenommen werden (rhetorische Frage)?

Die ware Schuld dafür liegt natürlich nicht bei Jeff (allein), sondern bei seinem SL, aber Jeff ist nunmal der, welcher den Bericht verfasst hat.

Warum ihn das untauglich zur Beurteilung macht? Ganz einfach: wer seine Lieblingsysteme mit den gleichen Kriterien verteidigt, mit denen er andere Systeme runtermacht, der ist einfach nicht objektiv. Punkt.

Grüße
alexandro

Juli 02, 2008 3:00 nachm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

@sky:
that's another of Jeffs misconceptions: the Charms in Exalted are not really "enabling", as more "boosting", meaning they allow you to do things basicly anyone can do, just really, really good.
i.e.: anyone in Exalted can throw a sword of course (thats a normal stunt), but the Charm Jeff mentions allows the character to throw it (depending on his stats) between an average 15 yards without penalty AND lets it return to his hand like a boomerang afterwards (in game terms Charms are like contracts between the GM and the player, where they agree on certain, predetermined rulings, rather than adjudicating the effect on the spot- resulting in a more confident usage of said effect).

Nevertheless, the players can never *rely* solely on Charms, as they have certain drawbacks (making you glow like a lightbulb i.e.), so adjudicating effects still remains a very important part of the game.

I have played the game anmd found it actually quite fast (not as fast as Feng Shui or Wushu, but on par with Savage Worlds and the DSA1 session of Set), provided everyone has the Charm rules on their character sheet and doesn't have to browse the book for them.

Juli 02, 2008 3:16 nachm.  
Anonymous kirilow meinte...

O.k. jetzt verstehe ich, was Du meinst. Allerdings ist mir 'Objektivität' auch nicht wichtig. Ich habe da halt nur herausgelesen, dass Jeff das Spiel subjektiv nicht mag. So etwas finde ich interessant; jetzt werde ich aber noch einmal Jeffs Posts lesen, vielleicht ist mir das falsch erinnerlich.
Allerdings finde ich im umgekehrten Falle die Aussagen nicht objektiver; sind nur DSA-Kritiken von DSA-Fanboys erlaubt?

Ich habe aber den Verdacht, dass mein Unverständnis auch damit zusammenhängt, dass ich, obgleich ich inzwischen vieles dazu gelesen habe, die ganze Spielstildiskussion nicht so wirklich verstehe. Zur Zeit versuche ich herauszufinden, wo ich mich selbst einzusortieren habe.

Grüße
kirilow



Vie

Juli 02, 2008 3:35 nachm.  
Anonymous Skyrock meinte...

kirilow:
Are you actually having fun without the need to convince yourself that what you do is
- deep,
- meaningful,
- art,
- mature and/or
- elevated above "regular" role-players
?

If yes, then you're playing old-school 8) ;-)

Juli 02, 2008 4:10 nachm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

Nicely put (Exalted is an oldschool game ;) ).

I might also add: "If you convince yourself that when you play a game that *isn't*
- deep,
- meaningful,
- art and/or
- mature
then you must be elevated above "regular" roleplayers (because they just imagine having fun with Vampire and Forge-games), then you are a RPGsite-wanker.

Juli 02, 2008 5:21 nachm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

"Allerdings finde ich im umgekehrten Falle die Aussagen nicht objektiver; sind nur DSA-Kritiken von DSA-Fanboys erlaubt?"
Keineswegs.
Aber man sollte schon unterscheiden können, wieviel Schuld am Scheitern der Kampagne am System und wieviel an der Kampagnenprämisse/am SL liegt. Sonst hat man in meinen Augen verspielt.

Und hier macht der SL nunmal *gravierende* Fehler (u.a. fehlende Struktur, bedeutungslose Kaugummikämpfe, overland stall etc.)- zumindest ist das mein Eindruck beim Lesen der Einträge, habe Jeff im letzten gebeten das ein wenig aufzuklären, aber hat nicht drauf reagiert.

Juli 02, 2008 5:25 nachm.  
Anonymous Skyrock meinte...

Maybe Jeff just isn't aware of it - it's an old entry, and I dunno if Blogspot notifies you of comments or if you have to check for them manually.
Or maybe he considers it as a too old entry to bother to discuss it anymore, depending on when you entered the comment... (The comments there only show the clock time, not the date of the entry.)

There's also the possibility to investigate deeper by RPGsite PM, you should yet have your account over there.

Myself, I see nothing of meaningless combat, overland stall and the like. As I read it, Jeff only recounts the most noteworthy snippets, while a lot of the stuff is either limited to single sentences, brief mentions in the comments or just ignored. (Like the wooing bit about that princess and her maimed former boyfriend.)


(Btw, it's interesting how your then you must be elevated above "regular" roleplayers (because they just imagine having fun with Vampire and Forge-games) fits the brain damage theory by 100%, only adding Forge games to the mix.)

Juli 02, 2008 5:55 nachm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

There is such a feature, but maybe he turned it off ;)

Jeff knows better than I do if the image he conjures in his blog entries is accurate or complete enough. I really don't feel the need to justify my article by "proving" that Jeff got what he was aiming for in the campaign, if he overreacted and tried to shunt his bad experience on the system or if he honestly doesn't know how his article must sound to a casual reader (something which I doubt, as he is very adept at bringong his point across).
I. just. don't. care.

Also read what "slizard" and "Lawful neutral" comment in the second post, there is lots of insight in there, putting some perspective to Jeffs reports, especially this:
"I've seen people who come to the table thinking "Exalted is anime" or "Exalted is Final Fantasy" or something. This doesn't end well. They act on their assumptions, and it just doesn't match up with the assumptions of the other people at the table - or the game itself."
I think the idea of "forcing" a RPG to conform to certain genre conventions is an oversimplification. Sure, it helps you get "a feel" for the setting, but you shouldn't usually take it too literal and expect it to conform perfectly (THIS is where the RPGnet darlings go wrong).
parallel discussion here:
http://tanelorn.net/index.php/topic,41920.0.html

regarding Overland stall:
"Right now crossing a few hundred miles of mostly empty wilderness is so hard it takes more sessions than we've played. I honestly expected to have burned down a city or accidentally committed genocide or opened Pandora's box or something like that by this point."

regarding meaninless combat: I dunno, but it feels just like they are fighting somebody new every session. Could be me, though.

"it's interesting how your then you must be elevated above "regular" roleplayers (because they just imagine having fun with Vampire and Forge-games) fits the brain damage theory by 100%, only adding Forge games to the mix."
Yeah, the irony never ceases to amaze me.
Oh, I forgot: replace "imagine..." with "*pretend* having fun, to make the 'real' roleplayers feel inferior" and you almost exactly have a rant by the Pundit.

Juli 03, 2008 12:23 vorm.  
Blogger Jeff Rients meinte...

Shame on me? What did I do now?

Juli 03, 2008 9:59 nachm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

Nothing, really.
Just me, throwing my hands up in frustration at the nth-iteration of the same misconception.
Sorry having bothered you with it. Not your fault.

Juli 04, 2008 12:10 vorm.  
Blogger Jeff Rients meinte...

I'm not bothered at all. And I would really dig it if you could explain this trap I have fallen into.

Juli 04, 2008 12:33 vorm.  
Blogger alexandro meinte...

OK.
I suppose you are aware of the behavior FP describes here:
http://lotfp.blogspot.com/2008/05/is-this-how-d-is-supposed-to-be-played.html

You have certain assumption when starting to play D&D and of course (since these assumptions are shaping the way you play the game) these assumptions are proven true in your APs. FP then talks about how the first adventures were "teaching" us to play the game "right", which is something I wouldn't subscribe to (when I started playing D&D I didn't really have money for adventures, so I wrote my own- and still ended up with a playstyle very similar to what most D&D grognards describe).

I believe it is more important to go about the game without any outside assumption and expect it to stand in its own right (like me just ignoring the 'D&D's just hack&slash'-buzz everywhere).

That's where your APs fit in: maybe I'm wrong, but they certainly project the idea, that you all had a very clear idea where the game was going (including individual goal-story for your caveman) and that all additional elements of the campaign where just set-dressing for this predetermined "story arc".
Like this individual goal-story (and possibly, by extension, the goal-stories of the other PCs?) where somehow the driving force in determining where the campaign was going. This is a very "Dragonball" or "Final Fantasy" type of thinking and I think it harmed the game as a result (Exalted is certainly no Forge game, where the individual conflicts are integrated well enough into the "gameplay", to become the driving force behind the campaign).

As a consequence it seems to me that the campaign was going downhill, because

a) what happened during the sessions was action and fun, but it wasn't nearly as *meaningful* as the characters backstory
b) tieing the characters backstory closer to the adventure would have been difficult without the risk of resolving said backstory (unless you pull the cheap railroading trope of the BBEG escaping miraculously every week).
c) because of b) the GM tried to compensate with even more action and fun, as well as drawn out traveling, to avoid having to deal with 'le grand finale' right now.

This creates a vicious cycle, where the frustrations of the players mount each week, as they are already expecting some of their cool stuff coming into play, with the stuff they imagine inevitably being far cooler than anything the GM can come up with.
This frustration is transferred to the GM, who feels like his players are simply "not caring enough" about the setting etc. (yeah, now we are fighting with flaming swords on a pterodactyl, now I'm romancing Princess Ariel, now I'm dueling with her boyfriend- just because). He feels that he has lost the feeling of where the campaign is going and, more importantly, where the *players* want it to go.

Anyways, that's my 2c about the topic. Could be that I'm far off my mark with it, but that's how your APs come across (at least to me).

Juli 04, 2008 5:47 nachm.  

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